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January 15, 2009

Comments

Nato

It seems to me that Israel had fifteen years without serious terrorism in which to go about finding a just solution to the problem of Palestinians trapped in the occupied territories. Then the Intefadeh seemed to draw them to the bargaining table. It would seem that Israel has done very much too little to show that Palestinians can achieve a just settlement with them without violence. Yes, the Palestinians are rabidly hostile - what can one possibly expect of an impoverished, dislocated and disenfranchised people? Further, Israel is a democracy, so its decisions to, for example, continue to build/allow settlements is sensitive (to an extent) to the will of Israelis. Can we really expect the average Palestinian to allow much exculpatory argument for non-military Israeli targets? I can see how the Israelis have come to their siege mentality, but I have a very hard time getting too upset with Palestinians for slowly accepting the arguments of the Jihadi terrorists. They were fairly secular people, once, and some of the better-disposed of Arabs toward the west. Those generations have died out or emigrated. Israel made this problem for itself in a way the Palestinians didn't, because the Israeli state had agency the whole time and misused it.

Nathan Smith

"Yes, the Palestinians are rabidly hostile - what can one possibly expect of an impoverished, dislocated and disenfranchised people?"

One can expect them to be true to moral principles and to reject murder. Moreover, they're no poorer than billions of others, no more disenfranchised than billions of others-- less so, if anything-- and indeed no much disenfranchised than many of their fellow Arabs, and as for being "dislocated," they've lived in the places they're in for two generations. Plenty of others around the world have moved more recently than that, some under compulsion, others for economic reasons but reluctantly, and have come to terms with the change. One does not have some special right to live where one's great-grandfather lived. For the Palestinians to define themselves as "dislocated" is in a sense optional at the national level, even if for individuals it would be hard to define one's identity as 'oh well, this is where I live now.'

"Can we really expect the average Palestinian to allow much exculpatory argument for non-military Israeli targets?"

Yes, that is the moral obligation of the Palestinians as of all human beings, and by failing to reject murder they place themselves in the wrong.

nato

I should be clear about the approach I'm taking here, in which the Israelis are supposed to be the "adults" of the situation, and are held to a higher moral standards because they are the ones with the power. This isn't really fair, no, but it's efficient because Israeli state is the sort of state that should be sensitive to moral concerns. A populace in the Palestinians' position will never be, and if the responsible parties wait until they are, they'll be waiting forever.

What I should have been clear that I was *not* doing is excusing, en-masse, each individual Palestinian of whatever personal viciousness they might have toward Israelis.

Nathan Smith

Yes, that's basically right. It's hard for societies to be collectively sane without freedom of speech and some stable decision-making process. The Israelis' "realism" creates a dynamic that empowers extremists and extremism. They fail to understand human nature and human society.

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